Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

172

Top 10 reasons why JWs don't have the truth - please contribute

by oldlightnewshite in

i thought it would be an interesting exercise to ask everybody on here what their 'top 10 reasons why jws don't have the truth' actually were.

maybe we can see some correlating views/patterns/ideas that may help us de-programme the newbies that come on this site.

if eventually most people have an outstanding gripe/concern it'll help everybody understand the ex-jw mindset a little better.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Here are a few that resonate with me (note that these are from a Christian/Bible perspective; of course, to the extent the Bible is a book of fiction, then that should be enough to discredit all so-called Christian religions, including the WTS):

#1 - False Prophecy. In the Bible, Jesus predicted false prophets during the last days. The WTS has predicted "The End" numerous times (1914, 1918, 1925, "within a generation of 1914"). And each time has been a complete and utter failure. Of course, just like a kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar, the WTS makes excuses, even torturing the meaning of the word "prophet" beyond recognition. When the WTS does this, it reminds me of former U.S. President Bill Clinton who famously testified that "it depends on what the definition of the word 'is' is."

#2 - Going beyond what is written. In the Bible, Paul commands not to go beyond what is written. The WTS does this all the time. For example, it has invented rules about sexual practices between marriage mates, banned organ transplants, and forbidden the celebration of the anniversary of one's birth. None of these things are touched on in the Bible, but the WTS has taken it upon itself to invent rules (much like the Catholic church and other denominations of Christendom).

#3 - Slandering God. The WTS teaches that "imminently" God will kill every man, woman, and child that does not have the "mark for survival" described in Ezekiel 9. According to the WTS, the "mark" includes being baptized as a Witness. Thus, the WTS teaches that God will "imminently" destroy billions of people--many of whom have never even read a Bible, much less a WT. The scriptural backing for this doctrine is tenuous at best.

28

Watchtower images required

by jwfacts in

does anyone have any images from watchtower publications of "worldly people"?

i remember some collages of worldly people doing evil things and would like to included them in some articles..

Olin Moyles Ghost

The WT quotes site has some pictures here: http://www.myiphonestuff.info/qwotes/pictures.htm

67

When will the crashing and burning of this organization begin?

by easyreader1970 in

jw
friends

as i see it, there are three looming threats that all have the potential - individually or combined - to bring the wbts to its knees, at least in the united states, anyway.. 1. youth retention.

the young people aren't buying it.

the watchtower will argue that faithless young people are giving in to demonic persuasion and leaving the truth.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Easyreader: Your points are valid to some extent, but I don't see the WTS going away any time soon. As sir82 pointed out, there's a large chunk of the population that wants to be told what to do. Groups like the WTS fill that role.

Your first point (youth retention) has been a problem for a long time. For at least 20 years, I've heard elders and CO's state that only 20-30% of young ones stay in (I recall the Pew study from 2008 puts it at 37%). Nonetheless, the increase over the last 20 years has been HUGE. The fact of the matter is that the WTS doesn't need its young people--at least in the short and mid-term.

There are plenty of suckers...I mean sheep-like-people...out there who are desperate and ignorant enough to join. And that will be the case for the foreseeable future--especially when China opens up, likely some time in the next decade. I predict that we'll see 10 million JWs within the next few years.

Your second point (fewer males able to teach) is a more recent phenomenon--at least in the U.S. I think it is a factor in the WT's recent downsizing (no more book study, etc.). The WTS has several options on how to handle this. I don't think they'll get to the point of having female MS/elders, but they may have women handle more non-teaching roles, such as literature, microphones, sound system, territory, accounts, etc. This way, the elders and MS could simply handle teaching parts and public talks. Also, the WTS could continue to downsize. One easy thing to do is get rid of that farce of a "congregation Bible study" in the mid-week meeting.

I agree with your third point (science is a problem for the WTS). But the WTS seems to be attacking it head-on. There were two brochures released at the conventions this year on evolution/creation. Also a few years back (I think it was 2005 or 2006), there was a "special" issue of the Awake aimed directly at creation/evolution. The WTS is borrowing heavily from the "intelligent design" movement.

Also, the WTS has backed away from some of its embarrassing positions--particularly that the "creative days" were 7000 years each. Today, you can be a JW and believe in the "big bang" and that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago (which wasn't the case when I was growing up as a JW). I don't see the WTS taking this much further, though.

But remember that something like 50% of Americans don't accept evolution at all. So, the WTS/JW faith is not really out of the mainstream on this issue--at least in the USA. It's probably a different story in Europe, though.

13

Watchtower Meetings: Catholicism and Collapse?

by metatron in

jw
friends

if you are an old timer (with a good memory), you can clearly see the downward trend within witness meetings.. for example: at one time, the theocratic ministry school had a written review that was turned in and graded and handed back like any exam!

now, i observe the school talks done at the last minute by people grabbed to fill in - and the talks themselves require little or no effort , at that.. who comments?

kids with one word answers.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Good points, meta. When you think back over the past few decades, it's interesting to see how easy it is to be a Witness these days. It's all being scaled back and dumbed down. In general, the progression has been something like this (feel free to correct me if I have mistakes in here):

- 1960s: week-long district assemblies, hour-long public talks, 100 hours per month to be a regular pioneer or "vacation pioneer", no reading of paragraphs in WT study, TMS written review graded by TMS servant

- 1970s: 4-5 day district assemblies, read paragraphs during WT study

- 1980s: 4 day district conventions, pioneer hours cut to 1000 per year (83 or so per month), 60 hours per month to auxiliary pioneer, public talks cut to 45 minutes, written review graded individually

- 1990s: 3 day district conventions, pioneer hours cut to 840 per year (70 per month), auxiliary pioneer hours cut to 50 per month, infirm/elderly can be counted as "regular" with as little as 15 minutes of activity per month

- 2000s: public talk cut to 30 minutes, book study eliminated, written review replaced by oral review

16

Pledge of Allegiance vs. Oath of Allegiance

by undercover in

as has been exposed, leaders of the wt corporation signed "oaths of allegiance" in order to secure a us passport for international travel.. another thread has a link to photocopies of these passports: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/scandals/198658/1/lemon-pledge if you haven't seen them.

marvin shilmer also has a blog on this same subject.. the purpose of this thread is to explore the question: is signing the oath of allegiance the same as reciting the pledge of allegiance?.

on the surface it seems pretty damning.

Olin Moyles Ghost

There's a Questions From Readers article on this--from the 1970s, I think. If I recall correctly (it's been a while since I read it), the WTS "logic" goes something like this:

(1) Signing an oath of allegiance to support and defend the constitution is different from pledging allegiance to a flag--which the WTS considers an idol.

(2) Also, the constitution of the US and other western countries include a provision for freedom of religion.

(a) Hence, the WTS could argue that an oath to support and defend such a constitution would necessarily be limited by its freedom of worship provisions.

(b) Thus, any such oath made by a Witness would incorporate by reference the WTS "neutrality" doctrine. This would mean that a Witness would only be swearing to "support and defend" the constitution up to the point it conflicted with WTS doctrine.

213

Brace yourselves: The GOOD things about the WTBS! heh

by theMadJW in

yes-lotta nonsense; a self-proclaimed "slave class" that is not a prophet but like a prophet, giving so awfully embarrasing opinions that are supposed to be automatically acceted by all of us jws...pretenders...mistakes... and moves not "discreet" at all- like the ngo united nations membership they secretly had for awhile....terrible, isn't it?.

i mean, look at the inspiring example we have in churchianity: such wonderful dogma- such as the three sadist-gods who have been torturing billions of men, women, and children for thousands of years- with eternity to go...and god making the universe in 72 hours...and backing the wars of their governments- "god and country!

", as they send their men out to war, telling them they will be blessed for it, and so many more wonderful revelations: the rapture, once-saved, tithing, etc.

Olin Moyles Ghost

There are some good things about the WTS. In particular, they teach strong morals. Now, I don't believe in fairy tales, but I have no quarrel the morals taught by fundamentalist groups like the WTS/evangelicals/Mormons/etc.

But I've got to take issue with MadJW's list of supposed "good things about the WTS":

1- Kingdom Halls with no collections, tithing, nor paid clergy; why even marriages and funerals are FREE!

No paid clergy? What do you call circuit overseers, district overseers, special pioneers? They get paid, don't ya know? Funny how they claim to follow the example of the first century Christians. But you may recall that Paul (who was a "traveling overseer) actually worked for a living! How many WTS traveling overseers actually work for a living? Zero.

2- The Truth about God, Christ, the spirit, the Kingdom, the dead, Hell, Resurrection, God's Purposes, and so much more TRUTH taught and PROVEN!

Well, I don't believe in fairy tales, so I hesitate to call any theology "truth."

3- FREE Bibles and any tolls needed.

Yep, they do give away Bibles and WTS literature. No argument here. Not sure what "any tolls needed" means, though.

4- The most HONEST and ACCURATE of all translations (none of the churchoids here have been ABLE to to any example of mistake)

I'm not trying to be mean, MadJW, but this statement betrays a startling level of ignorance about the Bible and how it was compiled. There are so many manuscripts with so many differences and contradictions, that it's IMPOSSIBLE to tell what was originally written. In the New Testament alone, there are more discrepancies between the manuscripts than there are words in the text! Thus, we've got a case of GIGO (garbage in - garbage out).

5- The Love we have for each other, as well as God and Christ: Love is CATCHING, and my WQTBS promotes it

Just as in any other group, there are some good ones and some bad apples. As someone who's been associated with the WTS in one way or another for several decades, I can tell you that there are some very good people who truly care for each other. And there are some mean/petty/selfish people as well. All it proves to me is that the WTS is just like any other group, club, fraternity, church, etc., when it comes to "showing love among themselves."

6- The backing and the training that enables us to ACTUALLY OBEY Christ's command to preach the Good News of the Kingdom to the World! (Not pay clergy to do it in fancy church buildings.)

See above regarding the WTS's unscriptural practice of paying its traveling clergy.

149

NOW how do you view the Future?

by theMadJW in

jw
friends

casting aside what little you learned about god and christ- are you thrilled with the future of mankind?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

MadJW: So, those of you who have left the Truth because of bad example or vice- what have YOU replaced it with to make you happy?

Response:

Many of us left the Watchtower faith for reasons other than "bad example or vice." What about those of us who no longer practice the Watchtower faith because we don't believe it anymore? Are you interested in what we "replaced it with"? That's like asking a person who had a rusty nail stuck in his foot what he replaced it with. Why replace it with anything? I know several former witnesses who enjoy having the opportunity to spend more time engaging in meaningful activity with their family. Rather than wasting 5 to 10 hours per week in WTS activity, they have more time to do things like help their children with homework, cook dinner together as a family, etc. Simple things that bring families closer together.

26

Top 5 Flawed Teachings

by MrFreeze in

this is for all of you out there who post wells of information on the doctrines of jw's.

let's say you had to present your top 5 arguments for why jw's are not the true religion, which five would you choose?

i'd like to hear all of your thoughts.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Here are five flawed WT teachings that have no basis in scripture or contradict scripture:

1) Jesus is mediator only for the anointed--not for the vast majority of christians. This directly contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5.

2) Certain sins cannot be forgiven unless confessed before a tribunal of men. No scriptural support for this.

3) Prophecies with multiple fulfillments--for example, Daniel's "seven times." Nothing in the Bible says that prophecies, such as the "seven times" of Daniel, have an additional "modern-day" fulfillment.

4) Allowing women to comment and give parts on meetings. This directly contradicts Paul's clear statement at 1 Cor. 14:34-35 that women are to be silent in church. (as a side note, I think this is misogynistic, but if you're going to take the Bible literally then don't pick and choose)

5) God has always used an organization. Ok, so who was the organization during the time of Job, Abraham, the middle Ages, etc.? And even when God did use an organization (the nation of Israel), he constantly sent prophets--who were individuals outside the religious and political leadership--to condemn the leaders of the organization when they were doing/teaching wrong things. Thus, even when God did use an organization, he endorsed dissent against it when warranted.

14

what is the best way to disprove divinity of the bible???

by oompa in

jw
friends

i mean screw proving that jws are not gods chosen people....i have beat my head bloody trying to prove that to wife, son, parent, friends....lol...which is why i do not have them anymore!

funny how if you do that...they take pride in how much closer to jehober and his org they are!!!!!arrggggghhh!!!!.

but if you can disprove the entire bible...and that is their basis for everything....well maybe that is the way to go..... unfortunately i cant get anyone to listen to me now for even 10 seconds!!!

Olin Moyles Ghost

Nothing will work if they aren't ready to hear it. Remember going out in service as a Witness and talking to people who believed in, say, the Trinity? You could show them verse after verse proving God is not the same as Jesus, but they wouldn't buy it. Witnesses (and other fundamentalists) are exactly like that when it comes to facts showing that the Bible is not the inerrant Word of an almighty God.

That being said, there are plenty of ways to show the Bible contains contradictions and inaccuracies. Here are a few easy ones:

- No global flood.

- No Exodus from Egypt

- Matt. 1 and Luke 3 have contradictory genealogies for Jesus

- Genesis 1: plants created before the sun (photosynthesis?)

- Revelation 22 - Jesus says multiple times "I'm coming quickly"; well, 1900 years later we're still waiting...not exactly "quickly"

270

WHO ARE THE FALSE PROPHETS TODAY?

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

who are the false prophets today.

by barbara anderson.

in 1991, one of the watch tower societys senior writers, colin quackenbush, told me in the privacy of his office about letters which the society had received from prominent and credible elders, not apostates (thats exactly what he said), who were concerned about the increase in accusations saying that jehovahs witnesses were false prophets.

Olin Moyles Ghost

I thought it was obvious that Debator = Reniaa. The style and content of their posts is identical. And debator began posting shortly after Reniaa stopped posting. Too many coincidences.